I have found a helpful research article on the 51 mental factors. I have not been able to read it all yet, but so far it has helped my understanding. Perhaps it will be helpful to others: plumblossomsangha.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/51-mental-events.pdf
This week, my questions for Geshe-la are:
How do the primary and secondary minds, and its 51 mental events function in those with disabilities such as: * Coma * Alzheimers * Dimensia and senility * Mental illness How does one with these problems apprehend objects when they have no control of their mind? Why are negative actions predominent in these populations?
Is it a correct understanding that the mind and mental events must share the five functional co-relations in order for true perception to proceed? It seems that the mind and mental events operate in tandem, with no center so that they must have to share the 5 functional co-relations in order to proceed. Similar to a tandem bike where both riders have to pedal the bike on the same terrain, with the same tires, and same chains to have it move??
If the mind perceives an object and the mental events are imbued with positive thought will the result be merit? Likewise, if the mind perceives an object and the mental events are imbued with negative thought will evil result? Or, do both the mind and the mental events have to perceive the object in either a negative or positive manner? Where is motivation located? This is not just seeing a thing or its characteristics, this is adding something to the view. Where does that come from? Is it also part of mind?
Is motivation part of "appreciative discrimination"? Or, is motivation part of "ego-centered demands"? Or, is it both, or neither?
What does it mean to say "Consciousness is a selecting awareness?" In the West, consciousness is also "selective". However, there is also an unconscious part which "keeps track" of all awareness. Is that the same in Buddhist understanding? If so, what is the "unconscious" part called in Buddhist thought? If not, what is doing the selecting? In other words, how does consciousness select certain awareness?
Is it correct to understand that emotions and reason go together? That they are not discrete experiences? Is the mind really an experience and not a concept? That by attempting to explain it as a concept we misperceive its true essence? In other words, can we ever really understand the mind? It seems that by merely conceptualizing it, we are altering the understanding of it. Rather, is it best to understand the mind as "mind-as-such" so as to avoid a false perception?
In response to Janet's question last week regarding existent and non-existent "I", what I have noticed is that my attachment to my mental afflictions caused me to have a very strong sense of self. I especially identified with my anger, which caused me to create a false sense of power along with a false attitude, based on past fears and insecurities.
Since having become aware of this, I have started to reduce my anger and other afflictions. As my anger reduced, I found myself losing my sense of self. At first, I was very frightened by this, because I felt I was losing my identity, along with a pattern of behavior which kept me very safe and separate in life. I also felt fear of not knowing what was going to replace my lost identity. I think I have come to understand my afflictions (and thoughts) created a false self of my own making.
My question is, as you start noticing and stripping away afflictions, do you come closer to understanding the true "I" or "self" and become aware of a different conscience underneath all the labels we have created for ourselves?
Also, in meditation, I feel as though I am removing layers of false and conditioned thought that have followed me in life, but I am still unsure if I am moving my mind in the correct direction. Is my thought process incorrect in this regard, or am I beginning to have some understanding of how conscience affects the nature of our sense of self.
The Main Mind – SWP Summary of April 22, 2014 Teaching by Geshe Dhargey Mind (Consciousness) can be divided into Seven types – Five of which are sensory main minds (direct perceivers – see * below) where the person is in contact with his/her sense consciousnesses (visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile) and the other 2 are conceptual. 1. *Direct Perceiver - Apprehending an object without making user of an internal image or relying on reasoning. 2. *Inferential Cognizer - The object is realized in direct dependence upon conclusive reasons – where there is smoke, there is fire) 3. *Subsequent Cognizer -Realizes what has already been realized through the force of a previous valid cognizer – For example, realizing an object as a subsequent moments through the power of the first moment) 4. Correctly Assuming Consciousness –Beliefs that depend on reasoning (contemplation on correct or incorrect reason) and beliefs that do not depend on reasoning (impermanence) 5. *Awareness to which the object appears but is not ascertained – Clearly Seeing something without realizing it 6. Doubting consciousness –Mental factors that waver in respect to their object – those mental factors can be deluded (and disturb the mind and may shake our faith – like wrong views and imprints of wrong views) or non-deluded (inquisitive doubting not necessarily disturbing to the mind) 7. *Wrong Consciousness – a congnizer who is mistaken with respect to its engaged object - can be non-conceptual wrong (Such as a ball of yarn mistaken for a spider) or conceptual wrong (such as delusions or wrong viewer: dharma). Direct Perceivers are of four types. By the type of objects that they take, they are divided according to the complexity (or subtlety) of their appearing objects: 1. Sense Direct Perceiver – Operating with our five sense consciousnesses. A non-mistaken, non-conceptual knower that is produced from its own uncommon empowering condition, a physical sense power. 2. Mental Direct Perceiver – Direct Perceivers that are not part of the sensory consciousnesses. Can be a moment of direct perception (a directly perceiving mind) or a mental power (mental power produced by meditative stabilization). A result of profound meditation of calm abiding. Can result in clairvoyance like knowing others’ minds, remembering past lives, extrasensory hearing, and so on. 3. Self Knowing Direct Perceiver – Self-cognizers . The aspect of the mind that is self-aware and the source of memory. Allows for self-awareness of self – taking an appearing object as another moment of awareness –this notion is accepted by all schools except Prasangika Madhyamaka. 4. Yogic Direct Perceiver – Realizes impermanence and selflessness which are produced in the mind of a superior. Requires calm abiding and special insight. Also requires training and a clear understanding of the complete process of mental cultivation. Question: According to Buddhism, sense consciousnesses are not merely passive “transmitters”. but do realize their object – like seeing your father (without labeling the object as such which is done by the subsequent conceptual consciousness.) So, I had an experience once where my daughter drove up and stopped in front of me while I was walking and expecting to meet her at her place of work. She smiled at me without saying a word and I did not recognize her as my daughter but rather a nice looking woman. I asked her if she needed directions and when she did not respond, I said I was on my way to meet my daughter and needed to go on my way at which point the woman spoke and said “MOM”. Then I recognized her as my daughter and we were both freaked out (smiley face). So, my concern is that this event does not seem to jive with the notion that the eye can realize it’s object….can you explain this event to me so that it reconciles with the Buddhist view ?
Summary Main mind and mental events not a duality but different functions A main mind without mental factors can not exist , mental factors without a main mind can not exist. The sense consciousness perceives the object directly, mental consciousness elaborates with labels, and conceptualization. All 5 senses are direct perceivers, definition: a non mistaken knower free from conceptuality.
There are 3 beyond wordly mental consciousness's 1) Direct Perceiver: A very advanced practitioner with clairvoyance's, able to remember other lifetimes. 2)Self Knower; directly perceives, has the aspect of an apprehender. The consciousness that experiences eye consciousness is a self knower. Yogic Direct Perceiver; non conceptual ,non mistaken, exalted knower. The uncommon empowering condition is Meditative Stabilization, the union of calm abiding and special insight. All three are incredibly powerful minds!! The 7 types of mental conscious were already covered nicely. Question: Is the mental consciousness of an ordinary person always conceptual?
I have found a helpful research article on the 51 mental factors.
ReplyDeleteI have not been able to read it all yet, but so far it has helped my understanding.
Perhaps it will be helpful to others:
plumblossomsangha.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/51-mental-events.pdf
This week, my questions for Geshe-la are:
How do the primary and secondary minds, and its 51 mental events function in those with disabilities such as:
* Coma
* Alzheimers
* Dimensia and senility
* Mental illness
How does one with these problems apprehend objects when they have no control of their mind?
Why are negative actions predominent in these populations?
Question #1: (well….three questions in one!)
ReplyDeleteGeshe Tashi Tsering’s book says on page 27 that:
“According to Mahayana Buddhism, bodhichitta is the culmination of the twin
aspirations of wanting to free all beings from their suffering and wanting to attain
enlightenment in order to bring this about . . .when they are developed to their highest
potential, they become the main mind of bodhichitta that continuously and spontaneously
works solely for the benefit of others.” And, later adds, “Bodhichitta is the main mind
that arises from both of these [twin] aspirations.”
There’s no mention (above) about a perceiving mind (any of the five senses) so would
this then be something that arises in meditation and involves only the conceptual mind
referred to on page 25 as two divisions of the sixth main mind: 6a.) perceptual mental
main mind and 6b.) conceptual mental main mind?
In other words, once someone has achieved buddhahood or the level of a bodhisattva,
with perfection compassion, are the other five main minds: eye, ear, nose, tongue, and
body, actively engaged?
Or, for those born in the formless realms, ( where there’s nothing to see, smell, taste,
touch, hear) is there memory of the senses stored in the mental main mind from previous
lives that participates in generating compassion? It seems that without the perception of
the senses, then it would be difficult to perceive/cultivate compassion for any suffering
except for mental suffering.
Question #2:
The five sensory consciousnesses arise as a result of three conditions. 1. Apprehending
condition. 2. Immediate condition, and 3. Empowering condition.
Can you please explain what #2, the immediate condition, consists of? If it is the
immediate moment of consciousness before a sense consciousness apprehends an object,
what is it perceiving?
Is it a correct understanding that the mind and mental events must share the five functional co-relations in order for true perception to proceed? It seems that the mind and mental events operate in tandem, with no center so that they must have to share the 5 functional co-relations in order to proceed. Similar to a tandem bike where both riders have to pedal the bike on the same terrain, with the same tires, and same chains to have it move??
ReplyDeleteIf the mind perceives an object and the mental events are imbued with positive thought will the result be merit? Likewise, if the mind perceives an object and the mental events are imbued with negative thought will evil result? Or, do both the mind and the mental events have to perceive the object in either a negative or positive manner? Where is motivation located? This is not just seeing a thing or its characteristics, this is adding something to the view. Where does that come from? Is it also part of mind?
Is motivation part of "appreciative discrimination"? Or, is motivation part of "ego-centered demands"? Or, is it both, or neither?
What does it mean to say "Consciousness is a selecting awareness?" In the West, consciousness is also "selective". However, there is also an unconscious part which "keeps track" of all awareness. Is that the same in Buddhist understanding? If so, what is the "unconscious" part called in Buddhist thought? If not, what is doing the selecting? In other words, how does consciousness select certain awareness?
Is it correct to understand that emotions and reason go together? That they are not discrete experiences? Is the mind really an experience and not a concept? That by attempting to explain it as a concept we misperceive its true essence? In other words, can we ever really understand the mind? It seems that by merely conceptualizing it, we are altering the understanding of it. Rather, is it best to understand the mind as "mind-as-such" so as to avoid a false perception?
In response to Janet's question last week regarding existent and non-existent "I", what I have noticed is that my attachment to my mental afflictions caused me to have a very strong sense of self. I especially identified with my anger, which caused me to create a false sense of power along with a false attitude, based on past fears and insecurities.
ReplyDeleteSince having become aware of this, I have started to reduce my anger and other afflictions. As my anger reduced, I found myself losing my sense of self. At first, I was very frightened by this, because I felt I was losing my identity, along with a pattern of behavior which kept me very safe and separate in life. I also felt fear of not knowing what was going to replace my lost identity. I think I have come to understand my afflictions (and thoughts) created a false self of my own making.
My question is, as you start noticing and stripping away afflictions, do you come closer to understanding the true "I" or "self" and become aware of a different conscience underneath all the labels we have created for ourselves?
Also, in meditation, I feel as though I am removing layers of false and conditioned thought that have followed me in life, but I am still unsure if I am moving my mind in the correct direction. Is my thought process incorrect in this regard, or am I beginning to have some understanding of how conscience affects the nature of our sense of self.
The Main Mind – SWP Summary of April 22, 2014 Teaching by Geshe Dhargey
ReplyDeleteMind (Consciousness) can be divided into Seven types – Five of which are sensory main minds (direct perceivers – see * below) where the person is in contact with his/her sense consciousnesses (visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile) and the other 2 are conceptual.
1. *Direct Perceiver - Apprehending an object without making user of an internal image or relying on reasoning.
2. *Inferential Cognizer - The object is realized in direct dependence upon conclusive reasons – where there is smoke, there is fire)
3. *Subsequent Cognizer -Realizes what has already been realized through the force of a previous valid cognizer – For example, realizing an object as a subsequent moments through the power of the first moment)
4. Correctly Assuming Consciousness –Beliefs that depend on reasoning (contemplation on correct or incorrect reason) and beliefs that do not depend on reasoning (impermanence)
5. *Awareness to which the object appears but is not ascertained – Clearly Seeing something without realizing it
6. Doubting consciousness –Mental factors that waver in respect to their object – those mental factors can be deluded (and disturb the mind and may shake our faith – like wrong views and imprints of wrong views) or non-deluded (inquisitive doubting not necessarily disturbing to the mind)
7. *Wrong Consciousness – a congnizer who is mistaken with respect to its engaged object - can be non-conceptual wrong (Such as a ball of yarn mistaken for a spider) or conceptual wrong (such as delusions or wrong viewer: dharma).
Direct Perceivers are of four types. By the type of objects that they take, they are divided according to the complexity (or subtlety) of their appearing objects:
1. Sense Direct Perceiver – Operating with our five sense consciousnesses. A non-mistaken, non-conceptual knower that is produced from its own uncommon empowering condition, a physical sense power.
2. Mental Direct Perceiver – Direct Perceivers that are not part of the sensory consciousnesses. Can be a moment of direct perception (a directly perceiving mind) or a mental power (mental power produced by meditative stabilization). A result of profound meditation of calm abiding. Can result in clairvoyance like knowing others’ minds, remembering past lives, extrasensory hearing, and so on.
3. Self Knowing Direct Perceiver – Self-cognizers . The aspect of the mind that is self-aware and the source of memory. Allows for self-awareness of self – taking an appearing object as another moment of awareness –this notion is accepted by all schools except Prasangika Madhyamaka.
4. Yogic Direct Perceiver – Realizes impermanence and selflessness which are produced in the mind of a superior. Requires calm abiding and special insight. Also requires training and a clear understanding of the complete process of mental cultivation.
Question: According to Buddhism, sense consciousnesses are not merely passive “transmitters”. but do realize their object – like seeing your father (without labeling the object as such which is done by the subsequent conceptual consciousness.) So, I had an experience once where my daughter drove up and stopped in front of me while I was walking and expecting to meet her at her place of work. She smiled at me without saying a word and I did not recognize her as my daughter but rather a nice looking woman. I asked her if she needed directions and when she did not respond, I said I was on my way to meet my daughter and needed to go on my way at which point the woman spoke and said “MOM”. Then I recognized her as my daughter and we were both freaked out (smiley face). So, my concern is that this event does not seem to jive with the notion that the eye can realize it’s object….can you explain this event to me so that it reconciles with the Buddhist view ?
Summary
ReplyDeleteMain mind and mental events not a duality but different functions
A main mind without mental factors can not exist , mental factors without a main mind can not exist.
The sense consciousness perceives the object directly, mental consciousness elaborates with labels, and conceptualization.
All 5 senses are direct perceivers, definition: a non mistaken knower free from conceptuality.
There are 3 beyond wordly mental consciousness's
1) Direct Perceiver: A very advanced practitioner with clairvoyance's, able to remember other lifetimes.
2)Self Knower; directly perceives, has the aspect of an apprehender. The consciousness that experiences eye consciousness is a self knower.
Yogic Direct Perceiver; non conceptual ,non mistaken, exalted knower. The uncommon empowering condition is Meditative Stabilization, the union of calm abiding and special insight.
All three are incredibly powerful minds!!
The 7 types of mental conscious were already covered nicely.
Question: Is the mental consciousness of an ordinary person always conceptual?